Re: If free will is so prevalent, then why do oracles work?

Kat on Thu May 21, 2009 1:00 pm

Stanze wrote:
Kat wrote:
So in your opinion life experiences make people bad or good? So if someone has a bad experience in life they will be bad? No Stanze. I'm sure you know that's not what I meant. -

I've asked that because no, I haven't understand what you said.

Kat wrote:
Your surroundings, your life experiences and other things are what shape your character. You're not born with a certain type of character. You're back to saying that your character... "for good or evil... is predetermined before you're born.

In a certain way, yes. I do think we don't come as completely blank and I do think that the other things you mention, apart from surroundings, are also the choices you make in life (free will).So you're saying we choose our own life experiences.? But of course I do respect your opinion and your way of thinking, please don't misunderstand me.

Stanze

Stanze on Thu May 21, 2009 1:02 pm

Chanah wrote:We did fight against it, Stanze. Warsaw was just the example the world heard about.

But as Franz Kafka wrote - when it's you against the world, bet on the world. And that was pretty much the situation the Jews were in in WWII.

Hi Chanah

When I was a kid my aunt always said that I was a Jew in another life. I simply love every story about Jews, their fight, their resistance, everything, the creation of Israel, etc. So, please, don't think I'm saying anything bad about Jews here.

The passivity found in some people (the Holocaust was just an example among others) is a fact though. I get angry how passive we Brazilians are against the abuses of our government and why can't we make a big revolution there? I include myself there. Of course the situation is completely different and I'm just pushing the boat to my side.

I do also think it's passivity the acceptance of the Sharia laws against women, for example. I do accept if someone comes to me and say: I follow that because I believe and I want to do it, but I get crazy when someone says: I follow that because I'm obliged to and it's God (or Allah) 's wish.

Stanze

Stanze on Thu May 21, 2009 1:06 pm

Kat wrote:So you're saying we choose our own life experiences.?

Some of them, yes, of course. I choosed to come to The Netherlands. I could choose not to come and I would have another life experience.

When you talk about tragedies as life experiences I can say that I do believe we choose how we will deal with it. We can sit down, feel miserable, cry and accept it, OR we can fight against the trauma, the pain, the suffering and still have a good life.

Stanze

fennario on Thu May 21, 2009 1:39 pm

Stanze wrote:
The passivity found in some people (the Holocaust was just an example among others) is a fact though.

Chanah on Thu May 21, 2009 1:57 pm

Stanze wrote:
The passivity found in some people (the Holocaust was just an example among others) is a fact though.

It shocks me, too, Stanze, but the fact remains that most of the world either didn't care or was happy about the camps. Nobody was about to help the Jews. The Americans got into the war on account of Pearl Harbour, not on account of Germany.

wood on Thu May 21, 2009 2:02 pm

Chanah wrote:
Stanze wrote:
The passivity found in some people (the Holocaust was just an example among others) is a fact though.

It shocks me, too, Stanze, but the fact remains that most of the world either didn't care or was happy about the camps. Nobody was about to help the Jews. The Americans got into the war on account of Pearl Harbour, not on account of Germany.

Are you saying that it is either people didn't care or liked it, and those are the only two absolutes?

fennario on Thu May 21, 2009 2:09 pm

Chanah wrote:
Stanze wrote:
The passivity found in some people (the Holocaust was just an example among others) is a fact though.

It shocks me, too, Stanze, but the fact remains that most of the world either didn't care or was happy about the camps. Nobody was about to help the Jews. The Americans got into the war on account of Pearl Harbour, not on account of Germany.

Oh, okay, I thought she was saying the Jews were passive. Whew, now it makes sense.

There were actually people who tried to come to the US and got turned away in those times. People do suck. Stupidity rules.

And Wood, while I don't see absolutes here, people generally DIDN'T care. At least not enough.

Stanze on Thu May 21, 2009 2:46 pm

Chanah wrote:
It shocks me, too, Stanze, but the fact remains that most of the world either didn't care or was happy about the camps. Nobody was about to help the Jews. The Americans got into the war on account of Pearl Harbour, not on account of Germany.

I do agree, Chanah. I live close to an ex-prision camp, Kamp Amersfoort. From here the Jews were sent to Germany. Anne Frank's sister was here. I always walk over that and I feel a terrible feeling when I see it and I really can't imagine how people could do this to other people.

I don't agree the Americans went to war on account of Pearl Harbour. PH was a "made up" situation to change the public opinion to support the American government to invest in the war. Their reasons were elsewhere...

Stanze

wood on Thu May 21, 2009 2:58 pm

fennario wrote:
And Wood, while I don't see absolutes here, people generally DIDN'T care. At least not enough.

Some didn't have the knowledge to help. Some didn't even know it was going on. Some believed Hitlers line and therefore supported his position. Some believed totally different and still supported him. Some to this day, believe racism is right. It all boils down to what they believed based on what they know or think they know. They choose to believe this based on what they believe is truth based on knowledge they believe is fact.

Kat on Thu May 21, 2009 10:55 pm

Stanze wrote:
Kat wrote:So you're saying we choose our own life experiences.?

Some of them, yes, of course. I choosed to come to The Netherlands. I could choose not to come and I would have another life experience. Yes that would be a life experience, but I believe that we were discussing reincarnation. Correct me if I am wrong, but you said that a person has already chosen their life and the things they will experience (abuser or victim) before they are born. Thay are born with a certain character. That they incarnate in either role to learn lessons from this life.
I'm saying that it is your life experiences...among other things...that shape your character, insofar as victim and abuser.

When you talk about tragedies as life experiences I can say that I do believe we choose how we will deal with it. We can sit down, feel miserable, cry and accept it, OR we can fight against the trauma, the pain, the suffering and still have a good life. I agree, up to a point. If my husband keaves me or if my house burns dowm, things such as these, yes I have a choice as to how I deal with it. but we were talking about children that are abused, some of who may live long enough to become adults that are so psychologically scarred by the abuse they suffered they will never recover. They don't have a choice as to how they're going to deal with it. They can't fight against the trauma, the pain, the suffering and still have a good life.

Stanze

I'm not having a go at you. I don't believe in reincarnation as it is purported and having seen first hand the results of abuse I fail to see how anyone else can.
People aren't born "good or bad", they become that way due to many factors...and "because they chose it before they were born" is not one of them.

Kat

fennario on Fri May 22, 2009 12:08 am

Stanze wrote:Pearl Harbor was a "made up" situation

I've known people who were there. Nobody "made it up".

Kat on Fri May 22, 2009 1:01 am

Stanze wrote:
Some of them, yes, of course. I choosed to come to The Netherlands. I could choose not to come and I would have another life experience.

When you talk about tragedies as life experiences I can say that I do believe we choose how we will deal with it. We can sit down, feel miserable, cry and accept it, OR we can fight against the trauma, the pain, the suffering and still have a good life.

Stanze

Stanze, it is very easy, when you have had no real trauma ...I am not talking about drama. I am talking about trauma, an experience that is emotionally painful, distressful, or shocking and which often results in lasting mental and physical effects...in your life to make statements such as the one you just made. That statement shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding for those that have suffered trauma beyond comprehension.
Try making that statement to a rape victim or to a someone who has been a victim of sexual abuse.
All this Law of Attraction, reincarnation, you get what you choose theories get up my nose!

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'm just getting angry.

fennario on Fri May 22, 2009 1:40 am

Please explain how a disembodied person who never even learned to control their dreams has control over where they are born and what happens in their future. Also, what is to be "learned" from years of abuse.

Stanze on Fri May 22, 2009 4:33 am

fennario wrote:
Stanze wrote:Pearl Harbor was a "made up" situation
I've known people who were there. Nobody "made it up".

Hi Fenn

I didn't say that the people who were there "made up" things. Of course not. What I said was that the government knew that a thing like that would come. There were plenty evidences of it as movimentation of Japanese troops, the replacement of the biggest American ships, as the USS Enterprise, just to mention some. The people there were as victims as the ones in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Sorry if I made myself misunderstood.
Stanze

Stanze on Fri May 22, 2009 4:50 am

Kat wrote:
Stanze, it is very easy, when you have had no real trauma ...I am not talking about drama. I am talking about trauma, an experience that is emotionally painful, distressful, or shocking and which often results in lasting mental and physical effects...in your life to make statements such as the one you just made. That statement shows a complete lack of empathy and understanding for those that have suffered trauma beyond comprehension.
Try making that statement to a rape victim or to a someone who has been a victim of sexual abuse.
All this Law of Attraction, reincarnation, you get what you choose theories get up my nose!

That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'm just getting angry.

Hi Kat

I always said I'm not an expert and I don't hold the truth. We are discussing here in an objective way, so I think. When you talk about lack of empathy you are guessing I don't have any traumatic experience. I have a cousing whose father was shot to dead (my uncle) in front of his eyes. I saw the biggest trauma this 10-year old kid went through even trying to kill himself or go out of home to kill the killer.

I have another cousing who drowned and another one whose wife died because of an aneurhism at the day of their daughter's 15th-birthday. A very close someone I know was victim of rape and I myself was almost raped and/or killed in an assault. So, I do have experience with traumas. All of these people, including me, have reconstructed their life. Maybe the trauma has not disappeared completely but they have survived it. And I do think that even a drama as you say can be a hard trauma for someone. I don't judge the pain of the others.

Also, I work with people in nood, sons of misery and despair. I visit them and talk to them. What I do though is to show them there is another way. I don't feel pity because this would be considering they are incapable to get out of that situation and construct their life EVEN with trauma experiences. What would be the other option? To cry, to feel miserable the rest of their lives and die like that? Sorry, but I don't think so.

But we are going far away from any discussion. I never said "reincarnation" or "Law of Attraction" are the truths of this world. As a card system, this works for me and it has been working in my life so far. I do respect what works for you, as I said before.

If you are feeling angry I must excuse for having caused this feeling on you. I'm keeping this very objective but I see you have a subjective view of it. I'm not intending to convince you or anybody, so let's keep it here.

Cheers and please, peace and love.
Stanze